Col. Tichborne.

How farre the Civill Magistrate had power from God?

Col. Deane.

The law is, that what a man would have done to himself hee may doe to another, and that according to that rule hee did nott undestand the Magistrate to have power.

Mr. Jo. Goodwin.

Offers to consideration, that God hath nott invested any power in a Civill Magistrate in matters of religion; and I thinke if hee had hee might more properly bee called an Ecclesiasticall or Church Officer then a Civill; for denominations are given from those [things] that are most considerable in an office. There is noe difference in that. That the Magistrate hath [not] in any way a concession from God for punishing any man for going alonge with his conscience, I conceive that is nott necessary to bee argued uppon.

That I suppose is [necessary to be argued upon is], whether itt bee proper or conducing to your ends, whether it bee like to be of good resentment of the wisest or generality of the people, that a businesse of this nature should bee of your cognizance, itt being that which hath taken uppe the best witts to determine whether the Magistrate hath power in matter of religion or noe, yett itt being a matter of that profound and deepe disputation as men have made itt, whether it will bee a matter appropriate to the cognizance of you to interpose to determine, and to decide a question which hath bin the great exercise of the learning, and witts, and judgement of the world. And I conceive though there bee reasons uppon reasons of very great weight, commanding why itt should bee inserted—Certainly if soe bee the inserting of itt could carry itt, if itt could obtaine and bee likely to prevaile in the kingdome I thinke itt would blesse the Nation with abundance of peace, and [be] the preventing of many inconveniences, and troubles, and heart burninges that are like to arise. Butt inasmuch as I doe nott apprehend that itt is a matter proper for you to take notice of [or] to intermeddle in, itt being a matter of conscience and matter of religion, whether you will, you must doe itt either [75] then as Magistrates, and then you goe against your owne principles, you doe assume and interpose in matters of religion. If itt bee noe matter of conscience, butt only matter of civill right, itt will fall into those Articles which concerne the civill power of the Magistrate.

Mr. Hewitt.

Every poore man [that] does understand what hee does, and is willing that the commonwealth should flourish, hath as reall an hand heere as the greatest Divine,a and all devinity you have had from reading, if you had as many degrees of time since the creation, learning is butt the tradition of men. Hee is properly concern'd and as one of England, and therefore [hath a right] to know whether you give him any power or noe.

Those men that are religious they are those men that has the greatest spiritts and fittest for publique service, and to have religion given under the hand of a Magistrate or two, and all the noble spiritts of the poore to turne them out of the Commonwealth—Therefore iff wee doe honour the Commonwealth of England, itt is best to lett them bee free, that they bee nott banished or injured for matters of Conscience, butt that they may enjoy the Commonwealth.

Mr. Wildman.

I suppose the difference is concerning the Stating of the Question. For what that learned Gentleman was pleas'd to say [76] whether itt were proper for this Councill to conceive whether itt were matter of conscience. Through the judgment of God uppon the Nation all aucthority hath bin broken to pieces. Att least itt hath bin our misery that itt hath bin uncertaine whether the supreame aucthority hath bin [here or there], that none have knowne where the aucthority of the Magistrate is, or [how far] his office [extends]. For the remedy of this your Excellency hath thought fitt to propound a new way of setling this Nation, which is a new constitution. Your Excellency thinkes itt that itt can bee noe other way for to governe the people then this way.

And though this Agreement were resolved heere—The Question is now what power the people will agree to give to the Magistrates that they will sett over them to bee their Governours. Now the great misery of our Nation hath bin the Magistrates trust nott being knowne.a Now wee being about setling the supreame power I thinke itt is [necessary] clearly to declare what this power is; therefore I thinke the question will bee, [firstly], whether wee shall intrust the Magistrate in matters of religion or nott? [secondly], whether itt bee necessary to expressb itt or nott?

That then the question must bee thus:

Whether itt bee necessary that after wee have had a Warre for power, to shew what power wee doe give them, and what nott? and I desire that the Question may bee stated: whether itt is [77] necessary clearly to expresse in this Constitution, whether to intrust the Magistrate in matters of religion or nott, whether itt bee necessary to expresse itt or nott?

Col. Hewson.

Noe man hath said that in this Agreement nothing hath bin [granted to the magistrate, save that which hath been] exprest. The maine thinge is nott whether heea should bee intrusted, butt what should bee reserved. I thinke that's sufficient. For to trust them, if they have a power in themselves either to binde or nott to binde, I thinke that will bee a thinge questionable still. For that's doubted by many whether the people can tie uppe themselves to any particular measure of their obedience. Now if soe, if they have nott this power in themselves, then for them to say they reserve itt from others which they have nott themselves—

Col. Rich.

I thinke the greatest cause of the lengthning of the Debate is the mistake of the Question in hand, and I have heard difference in opinion severall [times?] about the Question. As to that the Gentleman that spoke last asserted, I referre itt to your Excellency that whether or noe the [not] empowering the civill Magistrate does nott reserve itt. If wee did not give him this power expresly, implyedlie hee has it not, and therefore to consider whether itt bee a necessary reserve.b If itt bee a reserve that concernes the conscience of any of those faithfull freinds that have gone alonge with your Excellency, and this is a reserve that does nott concerne us butt them. . . . . Even for that I referre itt to your Excellency, whether itt ought nott to bee inserted?

Butt as to the equity and reason of the thinge, whether hee hath this from God, or whether hee can have itt, that is soe cleare that [78] noe man will argue for itt. That [the question] is, whether the Civill Magistrate hath power to bee exercis'd uppon the outward man for civill thinges. It has bin said wee may intrust the Civill Magistrate with our lives and our estates, butt to intrust the Civill Magistrate with a compulsive power for religious ends does implicitely signify, that wee will submitt to such a power. Now the question is [not] whether wee can impower him over our consciences; it's impossible. Butt this is that which sticks with mee, whether wee ought to countenance the Magistrate, much lesse give him a power over the persons of men, for doing or nott doing religious thinges according to his judgement.

Lt. Col. Lilburne.

To my understanding [in] all that hath bin said to reach this businesse that which hath bin principally aimed att [is] to state the Question. According to [the] Commissary Generall's first stating of itt, [it] is this. That seing there hath bin a great warre about breach of trust (and that unlimited trust), and seing wee are now about to [seek a way to] avoide those miseries that hitherto have hapned, I conceive the substance of the Question will bee this: whether itt bee necessary to represent the trust that is reposed in the Magistrates. That I conceive that is the principall thinge that will reach our end. Whether itt bee requisite to expresse their trust positively in this Agreement, yea or noe?

Com. Gen. Ireton.a

I have heard soe many thinges and soe many mistakes that itt makes mee thinke of some other method, and that is to finde out the persons of the severall opinions that are started amongst us, that [they] may apply themselves to answer [each other]. Nott many to speake together of one parte, and that which they have said goe without answer; butt imediatelie as one hath spoken any thinge of one [79] parte that itt may bee answer'd of the other parte. Otherwise wee shall, as farre as my reason goes, perplex ourselves and all that heare us.a

My memory is nott able to reach to those many mistakes that I have found in the Debate hitherto, butt I'le speake a worde to the last because itt is very materiall. I perceive by this Gentleman that the foundation of the necessity—the ground of the necessityb—[of] the determination of this point now, is fix't uppon this: that wee have had warres and troubles in the Nation, and that hath bin for want of ascertayning the power in which men should have acquies'd in the Nation, and for that men have nott knowne where to acquiesce. If the meaning of this bee, that itt hath bin for want of knowing what power Magistracie hath had, I must needes say that itt hath bin a cleare mistake [to say] that this was the ground of the warres. The grounds have bin these: That wheras itt is well and generally knowne what is the matter of the supreame trust (that is all thinges necessary for the preserving of peace) [it is not so well known] what is the end of civill societie and Commonwealthes. If I did looke att libertie [alone] I would minde noe such thinge [as a Commonwealth]; for then I am most free when I have noebody to minde mee. Nor doe I finde anythinge else that's imediately necessary, nott [as the cause] of making any power amongst men, butc the preserving of humane society in peace. Butt withall to looke att such a trust. That you comitt the trust to persons for the preserving of peace that they may use it in such a way as may bee most suitable in civill societie, that are most probable and hopefull for [preserving] libertie, and nott [like] to make us slaves, as itt may bee most hopefull for common and equall right amonge us, as may be most hopefull to provide for the prosperitie and flourishing state of the nation. That the necessary thinge, that which necessarily leads all men into civill agreements or contracts, or to make Commonwealthes, is the necessity of itt for preserving peace. Because otherwise, if [80] there were noe such thinge, butt every man [were] left to his owne will, mens contrary wills, lusts, and passions would lead every one to the destruction of another, and [everyone] to seeke all the wayes of fencing himself against the jealousies of another.

That which hath occasioned the warre in this Nation, and that which hath occasioned the controversies heretofore is,a nott the nott knowing what the limitations are, or of what [nature] the supreame trust is, butt that wee have nott knowne in what persons, or what parties, or what councill the trust hath layne. The Kinge hee hath claim'd itt as his right, as in the case of Shippe Monie, butt the people thought they had another right then. There was a Parliament called, and itt was then cleare and undenied; the Kinge could nott deny itt—that itt was the right of the kingdome that they should nott bee bound and concluded, butt by common consent of their deputies or Representatives in Parliament. Itt [not] being thus farre made cleare where the supreame trust did lie, thus much was cleare, that the kinge could nott doe anythinge alone. Then hee insists uppon itt, that the Parliament could nott doe any thinge without him. This was the difference, because they did assume to doe somethinge without him which they thought necessary for the safetie of the Kingedome. Soe that the ground of the warre was nott difference in what the supreame Magistracie [was, but] whether [it was] in the Kinge alone.b Now wee are all that are heere I suppose unanimous, that this bone of contention should bee taken away, that itt should bee determined in what persons or succession of persons the supreame trust doth lie. With us the Question is, what kinde of power wee should committ with those that have the supreame trust. Since itt is cleare in this question itt is nott intended [to determine] whether wee shall committ [to them] a trust of our judgements or consciences, the question is whether wee should give a trust to them for the outward man, and with [81] acquiescence butt for peace-sake. That all civill power whatsoever, neither in naturall or civill thinges, is nott [able] to binde men's judgements. The judgement of the Parliament [which] is the supreamest Councill in the World, cannott binde my judgement in any thinge. [Whatever power you give the magistrate], whether you limitt itt to civill thinges or naturall thinges, the effect of that power is that hee hath nott power to conclude your inward, butt your outward man [only]; the effect of all is butt the placing of a power in which wee would acquiesce for peace sake.a Take that for granted then. To come to consider whether as to the proceeding to the outward man, and our acquiesce[nce] unto him for peace-sake, itt bee fitt for us to committ a trust to the civill Magistrate for this purpose, concerning spirituall thinges as concerning civill thinges.

Now the ground [of the dispute] is this. There are two pretences of Conscience. There are many men who doe claime a right to the Civill Commonwealth with you, and have nott forfeited that right. They say "Though wee thinke itt bee in your power to determine who shall bee the supreame Magistrate, butt that being determined there is somethinge of Divine Institution that does tell him what is his duty to doe, gives him rules in point of acting betweene man and man, in civill thinges hee ought to have regard to that right. 2dly They say, that that same word or witnesse of God left to us, which gives him directions in this case in civill thinges, [which tells him] what is right and what is wronge, and soe must bee the guide of his judgement—that same does tell him, that in some thinges [that concern religion] hee ought to restraine. This is truly the pretence of conscience on one parte.

That which is said against this. First, many men doe nott beleive that there is by the word of God, by the Scripture, any such direction, or power, or duty laid uppon the Magistrate, that hee should exercise any such power in thinges that concerne religion. They differre in that point. Secondly, they say: "Though itt were soe, to your satisfaction that are of that opinion, yett wee [82] being nott satisfied that wee ought to thinke soe, itt is nott fitt for us to committ a power to him which God hath nott intrusted him withall." That's the argument. For otherwise itt would follow, that if there bee a pretence of conscience, and some probable grounds and reasons on the one side, that the Magistrate should nott bee bound in matters of religion, butt that hee may exercise this power in this case. When wee are uppon the businesse or uppon agreement itt will bee necessary wee should leave this out. Lett us goe on to make an agreement for our civill rights uppon those thinges wherin wee are agreed, and lett us [not] make such a thinge necessary to the agreement as will inevitably exclude one of us from the agreement, butt lett us make such a distribution of the publique trust in such hands as shall give everyone an equall share, an equall interest and possibility, and lett us submitt ourselves to these future Representatives, and if wee bee nott satisfied in one Representative itt may bee satisfied in the next. This would certainly bee the most reasonable way in all those that have nott admitted this Agreement.

Saving that, [as] itt's alleadged on one hand, "If you putt this into the Agreement you necessarily exclude mee from itt, as my conscience is that the Magistrate should have that power;" soe sayes the other, "If you have nott this in the Agreement you doe exclude mee from the Agreement for my conscience sake, for my conscience is, that the Magistrate should nott have that power."

Then Sir—For that truly I thinke itt has bin offer'd, to the end wee may come to the neerest possibility that I can see to an agreement—this hath bin offer'd. That you cannot conscientiously intrust the Magistrate with a power which by the rule of God hee ought nott to exercise, butt if you finde itt is alleadg'd to give him a power to all thinges butt those that are reserved, and [if we do] nott reserve this from him then wee give him the power of that. To that itt hath bin offer'd, that in your generall clause concerning the power of the supreame Magistracie of the peoples Representative that wee should [make it] extend to all civill and naturall [83] thinges;a then if nott having right to a power from him if hee will exercise his power without clayming itt from some body else; if hee have itt in him of God then your Agreement cannott take itt from him; if hee have itt nott [of God] then itt is nott [given him] in the Agreement.

For that for a setling of the power, there are noe rightfull foundations of this trust [save] either Divine Institution or designation of the person, or else an humane placing of them. Now though itt bee in man (where God doth nott designe) rightfully to elect and designe the persons, yett when the persons are elected and instituted, what is their duty to doe in point of justice, and what is their duty in point of those thinges of religion whereof they are to judge, [those are things] that are nott to bee determined by those that committ the trust to them. Certainly [by] the same reason as wee in only making our choice of the persons and of the time of their continuance, (that are clearly in our power) dob leave itt to him according to his judgement to determine and proceede in matters of civill right and civill thinges, [so] wee may uppon the same ground, without further prejudice to the inwardc man, referre to him a power of determining as to the outward man what hee will allow or suffer in matter of religion.

And thus I have indeavoured as clearly as I can to state the Question and the severall Questions that are in this businesse.

Col. Whalley.

My Lord,

Wee are about preparing an Agreement for the people and truly, my Lord, itt is high time that wee did agree. If we now vary itt is [84] a ready way to common ruine and destruction. My Lord, I doe perceive in this paper which is prepared for the people to bee by Agreement. There is one Article in itt which hath bin soe much spoken of to the great stumbling of many. Itt causes a great difference amongest us. If soe, wee cannott butt expect that itt will cause a greater in the Kingdome, and soe great as doubtlesse will occasion a new commotion. Since itt is soe apparent to us, I must thinke itt were a very necessary Question to putt, whether this ought nott to bee left out of this paper, yea or noe. For how can wee terme that to bee an Agreement of the people which is neither an Agreement of the major parte of the people, and truly for anythinge I can perceive (I speake out of my owne judgement and conscience) nott [an Agreement of] the major parte of the honest partie of the Kingdome? If the Question were whether the Magistrate should have coercive power over mens Consciences, I thinke itt is a very necessary thinge to putt. Wee have bin necessitated to forcea the Parliament, and I should bee very unwilling wee should force the people to an Agreement.

Lt. Col. Lilburne.

I agree to that motion of the Commissary Generall, that there might be some of contrary principles or parties chosen out to agree uppon the stating of our Question, that wee may nott spend soe much time in that which wee are to Debate uppon.

Mr. Sprigge.

My Lord,

I should bee loath to taxe any heere with mistakes, though I have nott a better worde to call it by, and itt hath bin used oft already. I conceive there are many mistakes have pass'd in bringing forth the state of the Question. There has bin a mistake I conceive of the true subject that is to bee intituled to this businesse, and a mistake of the capacitie that you are in to act in this businesse, and a mistake of the opportunity that lies before you, [85] and of the fruite and end of your actions. I conceive my Lord, that hee hath not bin intituled to this thinge who ought to be intituled, and that is our Lord Jesus Christ, who is heire of all thinges; and as hee was Gods delight before the world was made, why, soe God did bringe forth all thinges by him in a proportion and conformitie to him, to that image of his delight and content his sonne; and soe retayning this proportion, and acting in this conformitie to him, have all States and Kingdomes stood that have stood, and expect to stand; and declining from this proportion, itt hath bin the ruine of all Governments [that have done so]. Itt is God's designe, I say, to bringe forth the Civill Governement, and all thinges heere belowe in the image and resemblance of thinges above; and when as those thinges that are butt of [a temporary] and representative nature have clash't with that which hath bin their end; and have either sett uppe themselves, or sett uppe thinges that are of this world like themselves, as their end, and soe have made all thinges (I meane the thinges of the other world) to stoope and vaile to these ends, and have measured Religion and the appearances of God according to rules and ends of pollicie, itt hath bin the ruine of all States. I conceive that that is the account that is to bee given of the [cause of the] condition that this Kingdome is brought into att this time.

Now, My Lord, God having thus taken us a pieces, and that righteously, because our Governement did nott stand in God in itts patterne, why hee hath only by his providence now brought forth the Governement of the sword, being that which only wee are capable of, and which wee have brought ourselves into a condition of needing and requiring.a Now, My Lord, I conceive that this same goodwill which is in your Excellency and in the Army to promote the spirituall liberties of the Saints as well as the civill liberties of men, cannott butt bee taken well. Itt is that which certainly you shall nott fare the worse for att the hands of God, who will award unto you according to your doinges, and according to [86] your intentions. Butt wee must alsoe professe that the Kingedome of Christ does nott stand in [need of help from] any power of man; and that Christ will growe uppe in the world, lett all powers whatsoever combine never soe much against him. Soe that I conceive the Question is nott soe much to bee putt in the interest of Christ and of the truth—I meane in the interest of the neede of Christ of your restraining of the Magistrate,—of your providing against such coercion. Butt if itt should bee, now that the Magistrate is despoyled of all power to oppresse the saints, if you should goe to lay an opportunity before him againe, and offer such a thinge to him, certainly that were to lay a great snare before them,a and by thrusting them on to breake their owne neckes the faster. For this I look upon,—that Magistrates and all the powers of the world, unlesse they were in the imediate hand and guidance of God, unlesse hee does superact, they will dash against this stone. Itt is naturall to them nott to retaine themselves in that subordination wherin they are unto God and unto Christ, who are butt to represent [him] in this spheare of theirs in a lower way, and to bee subservient to him. Butt there is an enmitie in all these, there is an enmitie in the powers of the world [against God], and therfore Christ must bee putt downe [by them], as wee have itt att this day. God is in the Kingdome, and hee is growing uppe, and men shall nott bee able to hinder him. Soe that heere's all the question that I conceive can bee made, and all that is concern'd in itt [is this]: whether you will declare your goodwill to Jesus Christ, or noe. For I say, Christ depends nott either uppon this or that, or the truth uppon itt, as if itt should suffer or die, if such a power doe nott appeare for itt. Butt there may bee somethinge else concern'd then [the truth, namely] the flesh of the Saints, which God is tender of; for hee is tender of all of us in our severall administrations and under our severall dispensations; and if soe bee that [the] Saints are nott [87] prepared soe to suffer, or inabled to committ themselves to him in well-doing without such defence as your sword [or] your arme, to restraine and keepe back persecutors—itt may bee God may in mercy putt this into your hearts to accomodate the weakenesse of his people soe. Butt I conceive, My Lord, that this thinge is nott att all essentiall unto your worke; for the power of the sworde and all other power whatsoever being extinct righteously, because itt stood nott and did nott act in God, I conceive that which you have to doe is to waite uppon God, untill hee shall shew you some way, and nott to bee too forward to settle. I perceive by this Agreement of the People there is a going on to settle presently, and [to] make a new constitution, which I thinke wee are nott in such a capacitie to doe. God will bringe forth a New Heaven and a New Earth. In the meane time your worke is to restraine, indeed to restraine the Magistrate from such a power. That the people of God, and that men too, that all men that are, ought to live within such bounds as may bee made manifest to them to bee such bounds that they may nott suffer wronge by might. Certainly if soe bee you shall soe manage your opportunity, I conceive you shall fully answer your end; waiting uppon God untill hee shall [deliver you], who certainly is growing uppe amongst us; and if wee could have butt patience to waite uppon him, wee should see hee would bringe us out of this labyrinth wherin wee are.

Sir Hardresse Waller.

My Lord,

That that I was going about to say was only this: I shall nott take uppon mee to dispute the Question, only tell you I feare I shall goe away with the same opinion I came. That itt was the Question, itt is the Question, and itt will bee the Question to the ending of the world: whether the Magistrate have any power att all [in matters of religion], and what that power is? My Lord, I offer itt to yourselfe and everybody, whether your affaires will [88] admitt of soe much delay as to determine the Question whether or noe. This that is term'd the Agreement of the People, whether you doe alwayes expect to uppehold itt by the power of the sword? Otherwise you must have somethinge suitable to the affections of the people, to correspond with itt. Truly, My Lord, I should bee glad all men might bee satisfied and I thinke, if I know my heart, I could suffer for their satisfaction. Butt since itt is uppon these termes that wee cannott goe together in all thinges, I desire wee may bee soe good natur'd as to goe as farre as wee can, and I hope before that [time for parting] comes God will finde out a way to keepe us together. If the other thinges which are Civill may soe bee termed the Agreement by us, if they may bee gone through withall, and if wee can expresse any thinge to lett the world know wee doe not goe about to give the Magistrate power in that which hee hath noe power, truly, My Lord, this will shew that wee goe nott about to give him more then hee has, if hee have itt att all wee take itt away. Certainly what wee doe heere does nott conclude against right, wee may bee mistaken, if wee give itt nott certainly wee restraine from that usurpation hitherto though I could thinke itt a great-deale of happinesse that every man had as much liberty as I desire I may have nott to bee restrain'd; and since I venture nothing butt a persecution of the flesh, and instead of bringing ease to the Kingedome I should lay itt out, and to that which lies uppon us of destroying Kinges and Parliaments and all that, wee shall destroy a people of our owne, wee shall nott bee thought agreers butt disturbers of the peace. Therfore I shall desire wee may goe on to other thinges and leave this till that time. And truly itt is somethinge to mee that the Spiritt of God has nott thought fitt to determine in this world, as wee are to live uppon such incomesa from God, and though itt bee a very pleasing thinge to have God appeare in [89] power to us in itt, yett God hath bin as much glorified in the suffering of Saints as in their doing, and therfore I desire wee may goe on to other thinges and nott sticke att this.

Mr. Peter.

May itt please your Lordshippe.

I thinke wee have hardly time enough to spend about those thinges that are very essentially and certainly before us to bee done out of hand.

First of all, wee doe nott know any one's mindes, for I doe nott finde anythinge att all is putt to the Question. For if any one of these three or fower were putt to the Question wee might have noe Question.a I know without all controversie there hath bin dispute, and will bee a great while [about this], and I know nott in what Country this will bee first decided.b Nott that God and Nature hath left itt soe [doubtful], butt from Diotrephesc to this day there hath bin a spiritt of domination. There are two thinges uppon which I will raise the Conclusion. 1. I am mervailous tender that there shall bee nothing done about Religion in England (and I am only tender in England, if I were in another Country I would nott say soe) because the interest of England is Religion.d I say itt lookes like the interest of the Kingdome; and I beleive you will finde that [religion is the cause of] those contests that have bin in the Kingdome. And though that Gentleman and others are inabled to know if [it be] soe [better [90] than I am], I ask why doe wee march with our swordes by our sides? From first to the last wee might have suffer'd under Kinges, or Byshopps, or Parliament or anybody, and wee that [speak] know what itt is to suffer and to bee banish't a thousand miles.a You shall know all the disputes all alonge have bin uppon this very point. Itt was the old Question in Pharoah's dayes, Whether the people should worship or no? Yett [though] I thinke in truth, [that] though wee all satt still, yett the worke of God will goe on, I am nott in the minde wee should putt our hands in our pocketts and waite what will come.b Wee have bin drawne to this worke, wee have nott bin perswading ourselves. I should spitt him out that would looke for any plantations of his owne from the other side, lett that bee curs't from heaven to minde the thinges of that Kingdome.c I only offer these two thoughts. First, God seemes to call for somethinge att our hands about Religion, and that only because wee are Englishmen. The 2d thinge is this. That I thinke wee should nott bee too much perplex't about itt; and therfore, if I finde itt move uppon other spiritts that itt is a matter of great intricacie or trouble my thought is this. Doe butt tame that old spiritt of domination amonge Christians, of trampling uppon their Brother, and giving law, and the like. Witnesse the Country next from us that hath all the markes of a flourishing state uppon itt, I meane the Low Countries. Wee are nott soe against or afraid of this toleration, and I am nott soe against on the other side that are to feare some sufferinges. That which I would hinte is, that now wee are come heere to settle somethinge for Magistrates [let us settle something for the Church too]. "If she bee a wall," sayes [Solomon of] the Church, "wee will build a silver palace uppon her, and if shee bee a doore wee will have her of boards of [91] cedar."a For the present case I thinke this, that that last motion made by that noble freind and some others [should be agreed to]. I wish wee would doe as all other Republiques would doe when wee come to such a rubbe as this is, I wish that this thought about this reserve may bee hunge forth in every Markett towne if men will write or speake about itt give itt a time itt may have a month or two that before you goe on with your other worke, and those thinges that can bee agreed to, and the affaires of the Kingdome from such time they may nott have longe debates. And soe you have my thoughts.b

Capt. Spencer.

Wee are now about an Agreement of the people, and I perceive one clause in itt is, that if wee have this Agreement wee will acquiesce.c I conceive if you leave this [power to the Magistrate] I can never comfortably [acquiesce in it], nor any man breathing, and this surely will bee [a cause of disagreement] if heed bee nott restrain'd in his power.

Mr.e

That Gentleman hath mentioned itt 3 or 4 times as if itt might bee taken for granted, that the Magistrate hath power over the outward man [but none over the inward man]. In some case itt may bee done. If hee hath power over my body hee hath power [92] to keepe mee att home when I should goe abroad to serve God. And concerning [yourselves] one worde I would speake. God has pleas'd by your meanes [to give us what liberty we have], which wee looke att as from himself by whome wee have had all the comforts wee enjoy,—I say God hath made you instruments of libertie. In matters of Religion that's preferr'd by us before life. Lett's have that or nothing. Now God hath by your meanes troden uppon that power which should have trodden uppon us. [Let us agree] to prevent any authority from coming uppon us. If you never agree in your Judgements, itts noe matter, [if you] keepe butt authority from beating of us and killing of us, and the like. And wheras that Gentleman spake of this concerning a Representative, concerning what power they should have heerafter, wee have this to say. If you your owneselves cannott helpe us [to freedom] in matters of opinion wee doe nott looke for itt while wee breathe. The Lord hath bin pleas'd to informe you as [well as] any other men. If you cannott agree uppon itt, then Ib shall conclude for my parte, never to expect freedome whiles I live.

Col. Harrison.

May itt please your Excellency.

I would nott trouble you save that itt may save you trouble. I doe wish that which was offer'd at first might bee entertained to save time. That you would putt the businesse in such a way [as] to have the state of the Question.a If itt bee soe longe before you come to the Question, itt will bee longer before you come to a resolution in itt. I offer this: That because this is that which stickes uppon the consciences of men I would nott have itt taken notice of by any that you would soe slight them as nott to doe that now, butt that some of all interests may have the consideration of this, and therin you may have confidence that God will blesse the issue. For what expedient there may bee found in itt that [93] may bee left to their consideration, and the blessing of God uppon their indeavours. Whether they should have assistance from some out of London, or those that would bee willing to meete [them from] elsewhere uppon itt, would bee an happy thinge to guide them to the right of itt. That then you would please to goe with the rest of the thinges that I thinke you may more generally concurre in.a

Col. Deane.

I should make this motion: whether wee might nott finde somethinge att this time might satisfie all, and whether in that foregoing clause. . . . "That in all civill thinges," [etc.], wee might nott satisfie all interests?b

Col. Harrison.

That will leade you to a consideration of the meritt of the thinge, and will spend much time in debate pro and con, and if itt please God to guide the hearts of some few itt may bee a satisfaction.

Capt. Clarke.

I shall take the boldnesse to offer one worde or two. That Gentleman that spoke lastc was pleas'd to offer this as an expedient to satisfie all: that if the worde[s] 'civill and naturall' [were inserted, it] might suffice to satisfie all. I suppose [they will] nott [satisfy all], because that all punishments, though for matters [94] of religion, are meerly civill for the punishment of the body; and whatsoever the sentence of the Church [may be], if they doe sentence any person, they send him to the secular power. Soe that will bee as himself has spoken. . . . .

Butt I shall adde one worde. This Army by the blessing of God hath done very great thinges for the Nation, and itt's the honour of the Nation that itt hath bin a shelter to honest people that had otherwise bin hammer'd to dust, and as longe as God makes us a shelter to them [it will be an honour to us]. Wee are now closing uppe the day, and I thinke every one heere is willing to see an end of the days, yea yeares [of his life] were itt to see that freedome soe often spoken of, and that common right soe often desired, clearly brought forth to the people. Your Lordshippe and the Army under your command hath taken uppon you to interpose in those times of straightes, to see if you could finde out such a way as might settle the people in formes of common right and freedome. You have remonstrated this to the world; and to that end you have hinted unto a petition of the 11th of September wherin (if your Lordshippe please to looke uppon that itt doth aime att) the thinge principally spoken of [is] that there may nott bee a restriction to the opinions of men for matters of religion, to the[ir] consciences.a Wee are conclude[d] men cannott master [95] passions. I referre this to bee consider'd whether if this bee nott our common right and our common freedome to live under a Civill Magistrate to live by our neighbours, butt as touching religion why should any people bee punished. I thinke, My Lord, that every one heere when hee speakes his Conscience will say plainly [no]. And now whether wee for prudence or policie should protest. Lett us doe that which is right, and trust God with the rest. Noe man or Magistrate on the earth hath power to meddle in these cases. As for meum and tuum, and right betweene man and man hee hath right, butt as betweene God and man hee hath nott. Therfore I desire [that] though all agree that the Magistrate hath noe power to doe soe, and wee have noe power to give him; yett seing hee hath in all ages usurp't itt; and in these late yeares, and in this last agea almost as in the remembrance of errours and blasphemies had made most of them heere to fall to the ground, and since that is soe wee have great reason to reserve itt soe. Wee might bee willing to reserve itt [hereafter] when wee cannott.

Com̃. Gen. Ireton.

Truly, My Lord, I should nott trouble you agen, butt that I see wee are falne uppon an Argument; and from the convincing of one another with light and reason wee are falne to an eager catching att that which is our owne opinion, and dictating that which is our apprehension, as if itt were the minde of all, and indeed of God himself; and indeed studying to preconclude one another by consequence, as especially the Gentleman did that spoke last. Hee tells us, that wee are bound by the Remonstrance to doe this thinge that now wee are questioning about whether wee should doe or noe; and one ground is because in that our Remonstrance wee had referr'd soe to a petition of the 11th of September [96] that wee had desired all thinges [in it] to bee granted. Butt if soe itt had bin an ill use of itt; if there had bin generally good thinges in itt, and one thinge prejudiciall, though wee did stand uppon all thinges in itt that were [good] wee were false to our Engagement. When wee had desired the whole wee did nott insist uppon every particle of itt. I desire wee may nott proceede uppon mistakes of this kinde. This conduces only to stifle itt, and I wish wee may nott goe about to sett such thinges uppon men's mindes.a I must clearly minde that Gentleman, that all that is said in the Remonstrance concerning the [petition of the] 11th of September is butt this: when wee have prosecuted our desire concerning justice, and our desires to a generall settlement, and amongst the rest a dissolving of this Parliament, [we then desire] that this Parliament would apply themselves for the remainder of the time to such thinges as are of publique consideration, and lay aside particular matters that have interrupted them hitherto, and for the further time they shall sitt nott medling with private matters, butt consider those thinges that are proper [work] for Parliaments, as reformation of laws, and providing better for the well government of the nation, and hearken to what hath bin offer'd to them by persons well-affected for the publique good; and amongst the rest [we mention] that petition of the 11th of September [and we move this as to matters to be taken into consideration, in due time and place, after public justice and the general settlement of the kingdom].b Now because wee saw very many and great dreames of good thinges, and therfore have desired they would take itt into consideration with this Agreement and settlement [97] thinges of that nature, and amongst the rest that therfore wee should bee concluded because of that, that wee should nott now have any thinge in this Agreement that shall nott prevaile for that which the petition does [is unreasonable].

Another thinge wee have declar'd [for]: to have a settlement uppon grounds of common right and freedome. Itt is the title of the Agreement.a 'Tis true, butt I doe nott altogether remember that itt is in our Declaration. Lett itt bee soe that itt is a common right. Itt is dictated to us by that Gentleman to bee a common right and freedome [that any man] submitting to the Civill Governement of the Nation should have liberty to serve God according to his conscience.b This a right, I will agree to that. That is nott the Question amongst us. For if that were the Question, I should bee sure to give my noe to the allowance of any man [to be punished] for his conscience, and if I had a thousand noes I should give itt, and that as loud as any man.

Heere's a[nother] Gentlemanc that does speake for what is to bee done in this businesse, [as being] a matter that is nott necessary to God and Jesus Christ, butt a thinge wherin wee must shew our good will to him, in preserving his people from sufferinges for that which is his worke, his act. If that were the thinge in Question, I should thinke that wee of this Army above all others should walke most unworthy of the mercies wee have found, if wee should nott indeavour [it].

Butt heere's the case. The Question is now, whether you shall make such a provision for men that are conscientious, [in order] that they may serve God according to their light and conscience, as shall necessarily debarre any kinde of restraint on any thinge that any man will call religion. That's the very Question. Truly, itt is soe, or else you will make noe question. If you could [98] bringe itt to a restraint for the Magistrate to punish only men that are members and servants of Jesus Christ, all that are heere would give an aye to itt. Butt to the question: whether admitting that to bee never soe good, and I thinke itt is our great duty and great interest to indeavour [to secure it]—yett whether wee shall make our provision for that in such a way as shall give to all men their latitude, without any power to restraine them, to practice idolatry, [or] to practice atheisme, and any thinge that is against the light of God?

Lieut. Col. Lilburne interrupts.

That is nott the Question; butt [whether] that clause may bee in the Agreement or nott?

Com̃. Ireton.

Whether this bee nott the Question: thata [all that] will joyne with you in civill thinges [shall be free from any restraint in spiritual things]? Now I come to tell you of what kinde those thinges are that conscientious men doe thinke the Magistrate ought to restraine. I doe nott thinke any man conscientious [that says] that the Magistrate ought to restraine a man from that which Jesus Christ does teach him; butt men have consciences to say that there are many thinges that men may owne and practice under pretence of religion, that there may, nay there ought to bee the restraint of them in; and that is the ground of our Question. Butt if I have mistaken this, I shall willingly bee mistaken. However I am sure of this in generall: that there is noe exception to the putting of this in this Agreement butt this; that you cannott soe provide for such a reserve as this is for men really conscientious that they shall nott bee persecuted, butt you will [99] by that debarre the Magistrate of a power that hee ought to have to restraine.

Mr. Sprigge.

There is something offer'd in that which I made bold to speake of. The Question that I conceiv'd to bee canvas'd was: whether your Excellency should improve this opportunity to restraine any power whatsoever from oppressing or vexing any man for the thinges that hee does conscientiously?

Com̃. Ireton.

That's nott the Question.

Mr. Sprigge.

I suppose itt will bee resolved in this, and though the termes may bee different.

Com̃ Ireton.

Doe you make that [clear] that they shall nott punish for any thinge butt that, and wee shall stand to itt.

Mr. Sprigge.

I conceive that there is all alonge a supposition of a provision to bee made to prevent heresies in the world, besides that same which is (as I conceive) the only meanes of suppressing them and eradicating them, and that is the breaking forth of him who is the Truth, the breaking forth of Christ in the mindes and spiritts of men. This is that which does only roote uppe and destroy those heresies, those false conceptions and imaginations; and I conceive that this same is altogether omitted and forgotten in the discourse [of the Commissary General]. For this is the extreamity that wee are reduc't to looke uppon. How shall we avoide, say you, butt that the Kingdome may bee overrunne with such thinges as idolatry and the grossest thinges that are? I conceive that itt is nott proper for Magistracie to bee applyed unto this; and therfore if you doe reserve [from [100] the Magistrate] this power to apply himself this way to the restraint of these, you doe nott reserve [from] him that which is his right, that to which hee beares any proportion, neither doe you withold any meanes that is proper for the suppressing and preventing of these thinges. Itt is a shewing a great diffidence in the spiritt of God, and in Christ, as if he would nott provide for the maintayning his owne truth in the world.

Col. Harrison.

I will only trouble you in a worde. Wee are nott yett resolved uppon a Question. [The Commissary General] and the Gentleman there that spoke last [differ] which ought to bee the Question; though in the issue itt will bee, whether this clause concerning religion ought to bee in [the Agreement]. Yett to the end that you may come to a period [I desire] that you would first take this into consideration: Whether the Magistrate hath any inspection att all in matters of Religion? And when you have concluded that itt will fall under your consideration how much [power] will bee needfull for you uppon any considerations to give to him. Therfore, if you will fall into the Debate of the businesse, I doe humbly offer this to your Excellency as the first Question: Whether the Magistrate hath any power or noe?

Doctor Parker.

I would nott have spoken in this kinde, butt that I have heard divers men speaking, and yett in my owne sence they doe nott come to that which I apprehend concerning the thinge. The Gentleman that spoke last spoke well: that hee would have a Question [stated, whether the Magistrate hath any power or no]. All that I would adde [is, that the question be], whether they have any power to restraine men in their owne consciences acting to civill peace and civill honesty? Whether Jesus Christ under the New Testament hath given any power to the Civill Magistrate to restraine men professing their Consciences before God, while they walke orderly according to civill peace and civill honesty?

Com̃ Ireton.

Itt is good to keepe to the Question which was first drawne, and as it is last (whether Jesus Christ hath given such power) itt is a catching Question. Itt was nott the businesse of Jesus Christ when hee came into the world to erect Kingdomes of the world, and Magistracies, or Monarchies, or to give the rule of them positive or negative. Therfore if you would consider this Question, whether the Magistrate have any thinge to doe in any thinge which men will call Religion (for you must goe soe large), you must nott confine itt [to the enquiry] whether Jesus Christ have under the Gospell given itt, butt you must looke to the whole Scripture. As there is much in the old Testament which hath lost much, yett there are some thinges of perpetuall and naturall right, that the Scripture of the old Testament doth hold forth, wherin itt does beare a cleare witnesse to that light that every man hath left in him by nature, if hee were nott deprav'd by lust. There are some thinges of perpetuall right in the old Testament that the Magistrate had a power in before the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Unlesse you can shew us that those thinges are nott a perpetuall right, nor had nott their perpetuall end, butt had only their temporall end, soe as to determinate by his coming in the flesh, you must give us leave to thinke that the Magistrate ought according to the old institution to follow that right.

Col. Hewson.

I desire your Excellency to consider whether itt tends? If itt bee a Question tending to that, then consider what you doe in putting itt to the Question. Either you resolve that they have a power or nott. I would faine learne if itt bee resolved whether that trust bee infallible, if itt bee liable to a mistake then wee may build a very great foundation.

Lo. Generall.

Now is only to dispute the Question.

Mr. Nye.

My Lord;

[I desire] that your Lordshippe would bee pleased to state the Question. There is one thinge that I have observed, that words of a neere significancie [sometimes lead to confusion], and I conceive these two words doe. Itt is one worde of "matters of religion," and another "matters of conscience." Matters of conscience is larger then "mattersa of religion." Itt concernes that of the 2d table. Now if itt bee the power of the Civill Magistrate over consciences for a man may make conscience of some thinges. There was a Gentleman cast into Newgate to bee executed for having two wives, and hee had this case of conscience;b hee sent for severall Divines, and amongst the rest I had this dispute. All the arguments about persecution for conscience. "Those that were of neerest affinity to sett them farthest off" [etc.].c [Say] such matters [of conscience] as concerne the first Table; then you come to distinct termes.

Mr. Walford.d

As a servant to your Excellency I desire to speake a worde. There is none concern'd more in libertie then the Lord himself. I know nothing butt that Kinges and Armies and Parliaments might have bin quiett att this day, if they would have lett Israell alone. For men to give away God how well they will answer itt I doe nott know. The Lord is a transcendent thinge. There is a seede gone forth from God . . . and whiles I am in bonds heere you will punish mee, when I shall come to returne to my spiritt. . . . Itt was nott the saints butt God himself. . . . and therfore all that I shall say to this—if you can make by your power a Magistrate a Lord and lett him bee sett uppe as soone as you will. I have noe more to say.

Sir Hardresse Waller.

I should desire the Question if I thought the Question would doe the businesse. I am afraid wee are gotten into the ocean againe. I should desire that might bee minded to save the time. Itt was moved a while since, and that by the way, to putt itt to such a thinge as may bee satisfactorie, for I doe nott thinke that words can satisfie the hearts of men. Butt if your Lordshippe shall take such a course that men of all interests to bee together. Lett the world know you will bring them into their civil quiett. Wee doe nott know butt that they will bee all agreed in this, and when itt is declared to the world, all Gods people may bee free.

Major Bartona.

An't please your Lordshippe, for ought I perceive there are many presumptions. Many thinke there are great presumptions. I desire there may bee tendernesse had, and that is first, that Justice may bee executed.b I feare stating this soe high itt does somethinge putt a demurre uppon that, and uppon what ground I doe nott know. I shall desire, that the meritt of the Remonstrance may bee consider'd, and noe other thinge offer'd that may intermingle, and desire that as itt is of that tender consideration as to bloud or peace. I heare of some thinge that hath bin spoken heere, that there have bin divers invited that as yett doe nott appeare; and [I move] what was by one Gentlemanc offer'd to your Lordshippe, that the place and time may bee soe determined as to this particular that they may have a further invitation, and soe bee invited that they may come. I shall desire that wee doe nott lay a foundation of distractions.

Col. Titchborne.

I shall desire to move this, that when wee doe putt itt to the Question, first, that you would propose heere what shall bee the Questions in the Debate; and then to referre itt to some persons and some time wherin you may take the concurrence of all persons that doe concurre. And in the meane time that the rest may bee [busied] in the [matters]a that concerne the whole.

Mr. Overton.b

I have observed, that there hath bin much controversie about this point, and severall motions concerning the matters. One thinge offer'd by Col. Hewson and some others, that some of all parties might bee chosen. I humbly conceive the same thinge hath bin already done, for there hath bin fower of severall parties chosen for the drawing uppe of this Agreement,c which they have done to try who will agree, and who will nott agree; for itt is a thinge nott of force butt of agreement; and I presume, that there is noe man heere butt is satisfied in his owne judgement what to agree to, and what nott to agree to. I desire itt may passe to the Question, [yea] or noe?

Com̃. Ireton.

I should bee as free as any man to have a catch of his owne Agreement, there was little difference in those that drew this uppe.

All.

Calling for the Question.

C[ommissary-General] I[reton].

My Lord, the Question that men doe call for is nott as to the [105] Agreement—whether that clause may bee fitlie in or noe, or any thinge to that purposea—butt [a question] to bee debated in relation to our judgements.

The Question was: Whether the Magistrate have any power in matters of Religion, that is, those thinges concerning the first Table?

Col. Rich.

I shall offer one worde to the Question.

Com̃ Ireton.

Whether the Magistrate have or ought to have any power in matters of Religion, by which wee understand the thinges concern'd under the First Table?

Col. Rich.

My Lord, I finde that there is a generall agreement by every person that hath spoken, that itt is nott his desire that the Civill Magistrate should exercise a power to persecute any honest man that walkes according to his conscience in those thinges that are really religious, and nott pretended soe. What is represented in opposition to this is: That wee cannott finde out any way to discriminate this from thatb exorbitant liberty which those that are nott Religious butt would pretend to bee soe, would take. If you please I should offer my sence to the Question:

Whether or noe the Civill Magistrate is to exercise any power, restrictive or compulsive, uppon the persons of men in matters of Religion, they walking inoffensive to the Civill peace?

Com̃. Ireton.

My Lord, I still say, that whoever is eager to catch advantages [106] for his owne opinion that there may be an advantage gained on the other hand, does nott further agreement. That which is propounded I did offer itt, that men under pretence of Religion may breake the peace, [or do] thinges that are civilly evill. Now, My Lord, I suppose that "whether if a man doe walk civilly & inoffensively or noe," is nott att all necessary to bee consider'd in this, which is the first and maine Question that is heere propounded, [viz.] whether in some thinges which [a mana] may call Religion, [the magistrateb] may have a restrictive power. Whether compulsive or restrictive power you may take itt whether you will. Yett it may still bee the question, if you will have itt puttc [after the main question].d

Doctor Parker.

One word more I added, that word "civill peace" or "civill honesty."

Com̃. Ireton.

Make itt whatsoever you will according to "civill peace" or "civill honesty;" yett still itt remaines to bee debated [whether the magistrate is to exercise any power in matters of religion].

Major Barton.

My Lord, I doe perceive as I judge, and speake itt with submission, that there are some heere that are too inclinable to follow the course of corrupt Committees formerly, that were forward to putt the Question before there bee satisfaction given.

Capt. Hodden.

Heere have bin very many disputes what would bee the Question, and if these words bee nott further explain'd in those termes the Question is still, and hath bin, that which I thinke most mens spiritts heere have from the beginning satisfied to bee, [to wit]: Whether you will restraine Magistrates from that tyranny of compelling or enforcinga men, and persecuting men for doing those thinges they doe out of conscience, and as to the worshipp of God?

Com. Ireton.

Reades the Question.

Whether [the Magistrate ought to have any power in matters of religion, by which we understand the things concerned under the first Table]?

Col. Harrison.

I desire the word compulsive may bee added, for restrictive will nott bee large enough. If [the words] any power bee nott large enough, [I desire that] then you will take both "compulsive" and "restrictive."

Com̃. Ireton.

My Lord, I perceive itt's every man's opinion, that the Magistrate hath a protective power; and if you will apply matters of Religion to the first Table, itt will bee granted [that he should also have a] compulsive. "Thou shalt have noe other Gods butt mee," "Thou shalt make noe graven image" &c. "Thou shalt nott take the name of the Lord in vaine." And then for the 4th. "Thou shalt nott doe any manner of worke [on the Sabbath day].

Whether the Magistrate have or ought to have any power in matters of Religion?

Mr. Bacon.

I doe apprehend there hath bin much time taken uppe about the [108] restrictive power anda the compulsive power; that is concerning the power of the Magistrate in matters appertayning to the Kingedome of Heaven, and the Kingdome of God. They have bin debated, first, whether hee have power; and 2dly what is that power that hee hath;b and soe whether the power that hee hath bee either compulsive or restrictive. Now I doe conceive, that any other power [than that] which is purely protective hee hath nott; and I doe give this account. The whole power of the Magistrate is said to bee the power of the sword, an outward power. I doe apprehend [that] really all matters relating to the Kingedome of God are purely and altogether spiritual; and therfore I conceive [that] to allow the Magistrate any other power then that which is purely protective of men to live quietly is to putt a power into the hands of the Magistrate which is nott att all given him by God. I speake somethinge as a man, and I crave leave to speake a word only as a Christian, as touching affaires of this nature, which I doe confesse is a matter to bee acknowledged as the great and wonderfull worke of God. To witt, that there is a time [of] coming forth of captives, according as the Scripture speakes, "I will take off every yoake and remove every heavy burthen from off the people, because of the annointing,"c that is, because of Christ. Now Sir, give mee leave [to say], this thing is the great matter, and it is the glory of the nation that wee have lived to [see] it, and it is the care of the honourable Councill and all the good people of the Nation, how wee are [to] secure the people of the Nation from the like thraldome they have bin in in times past. I will lay downe only this one position. The ground of all that enmity that hath bin of men one against another, and of the universall enmity that hath bin in all sorts of men against God, I conceive hath bin the state of ignorance, and darkenesse, and pretence of Religion that hath bin amongst us. That nott having the faith itt self which wee have pretended to see wee have rather the forme of godlinesse then the power of itt, and [109] God hath bin pleased to bringe forth as wee have heard.a There are certaine men in the Army that having tasted of the good worde of God and the powers of the world to come, that have bin in the good land, have bin in such a scattered time, wee all having light come, that the land may have her sabaoth in a good sence after 6 or 7 yeares disturbance or trouble now taken away, and therfore the Lord fill the Nation with men of upright spiritts. Whatsoever you doe appoint for the restrayning of men the Magistrate his hands will nott bee bound uppe, butt hee will keepe his power against that Religion that is contrary to himself; and therfore that's to bee prevented att this time as longe as wee goe noe further.

Com̃. Ireton.

A caution that you would use such words as concerne a restrictive power.

Whether the Magistrate have or ought to have any compulsive, or restrictive power in matters of Religion?

1. That those who are of the opinion in the affirmative,b begin to lay downe their grounds, and that the discussion bee alternate:

2. That if noe man give grounds for a compulsive power, then those that doe speake against the power of the Magistrate will speake only to the restrictive power.

Mr.—

If there bee noe man heere to speake. . . . . That that, I should offer to consideration is this. When Israell having bin at a losse a longe time had renewed their Covenant with God soe that God accepted them, Hee was pleased to deliver his minde to them (and nott only to them butt to all the sons of men) in those ten words, commonly called, the Ten Commandements. Now as your good Apostle saith, they consist of two Tables, and the commands of the [110] first Table are all negatives. Now God never gave any rules to the sons of men butt hee gave them to bee in force. For my owne parte I apprehend, that they are morall, and soe a rule to all the sons of men as well as to Israell, butt especially to those who are zealous for their God. That there is a compulsive power left to the Magistrates that I cannott alledge; butt that there is a restrictive [power from the very] nature of the Commandements that I doe hold necessary. Neither did Israell ittself goe about to compell any man, butt were very watchfull and shy whome they did admitt into communion with them, butt wee have observed that they have restrain'd, as itt concernes every Magistrate [to do]. Wee must nott looke att Pagans and Heathens that are revolted from their duties to God, and yett God hath left those impressions uppon the sons of men that you shall nott finde any people butt they worshippe some God. Now the command of God in that kinde is, that they should worshippe noe other God butt him. This is that which I thinke lies uppon all powers, to suffer noe other God to bee worship't butt Jehovah; and soe the 2d Commandement does restraine Idolatry. Butt as hee is pure in himself, soe hee will have such a worshipp as himself hath instituted and appointed; hee will nott have the sacred name taken in vaine. Now any that shall breake the 2d or 3d Commandement comes under the cognizance of the Civill Magistrate. Soe for the 4th, though there bee a Prologue leading to itt, yett itt is restrictive. Soe that though I have nothing to say for compulsive power, yett thus much I have to say, that [the magistrate ought to have a restrictive power]. God deliver'd these thinges to Moses that was a prince in Israell, and itt is a rule to this day, and itt is a rule by the light of Nature [also]; and therfore itt properly concernes the princes of the people, especially those that knowa God, to restraine corrupt worshippe.

Mr. Nye.

I speake to this. That there is noe ground from the nature of the Meeting to conclude every man [as agreeing] that sayes nothing, if your end bee by the suffrage of silence to second your owne judgements, to stampe your owne judgements, butt these have a better foundation then silence, butt least silence should bee soe farre thought of—Truly as the Question is stated I thinke a man may assent to itt, if you will take the words, "those things that are truly religious."a If the contests that is betweene us and Byshopps were by way of compulsion they have assum'd soe much as this. That even in that which is truly religious, the worshipp and service of God, they have putt such restrictionsb as these are: that men shall nott preach though they bee called of God; and soe likewise compulsion, that such a forme of prayer [should be used]. In this sence your Question ought to bee understood, and soe to take the words in your proper speech, and that is religion. For if you say "religion" simply, by itt you understand true religion; and if you speake of any other thinge you will give itt's adjunct "false religion;" and soe a man may easily stand to itt, and yett nott come to what is the drift of the Question: whether a false religion, or such matters as these, are [matters which] the Magistrate hath to doe withall. If itt bee understood in that strict sence, I must stand with you in itt. I doe nott thinke, that the Civill Magistrate hath anythinge to doe determinatively to inforce anythinge that is matters of religion, to inforce the thinge that is that I doe extreamly question. Butt for the other [question], whether the Magistrate have anythinge to doe under any notion or consideration whatsoever, either of setting uppe the false God, which is noe religion indeed, that for my owne parte I must professe that I doe thinke the Magistrate may have somethinge to doe in that. And soe I shall deliver my judgement that noe man shippewreck himself in this thinge.

Mr. Wildman's Question.

Whether the Magistrate have any restrictive or compulsive power in the time or manner of Gods worshippe, or [as to] faith or opinion concerning him?

Com̃ Gen. Ireton.

Whether the Magistrate have or ought to have any power of restrayning men, by penalties or otherwise, from the profession or practice of any thinge the evill or good whereof relates to God only?

Col. Harrison.

That you will leave [thereby] the judgement to the Civill Magistrate [to decide] whether the doing of such a thinge bee [relating] to God [only] or noe. Whether [when the magistrate punishes] errour ora heresie, hee doe nott [profess to] punish them as itt relates to the Neighbour; and whether if soe, weeb doe nott leave them to bee punished [by using those words.]?

Com̃. Ireton.

1. I take itt for granted that [the things commanded in] those words which wee call the fower first Commandements they are matters of religion, the fault ofc non-performance whereof relates to God only, the duty and satisfaction if a man doe observe them relates to God onely. I speake concerning such thinges. As to them I give my ground thus. That as to those thinges the Magistrate hath a power to restraine men, and ought to doe itt. I argue first from the possibility of the thinge. Those are thinges against which there is a testimonie in the light of nature, and consequently, they are thinges that men as men are in some capacity [to judge of], unlesse they are perverted—indeed a man perverted in his owne lusts cannott judge of any thinge even matters of common honesty—2dly [113] Those who are subject[s] and nott the judges, they are likewise in [a] capacity to judge of the evill of those thinges even by the light of nature. And in that respect I account itt is proper and nott unsuitable to the judgment of men as men, and of Magistrates as Magistrates, because (if any body will take notes of itt in writing they maya) because in such thinges the Magistrate by the light that hee hath as a man may judge, and the subject by that light that hee hath as a man may bee convinc't.

In the next place I goe to grounds of Scripture, and shew that this is the Magistrates duty. And first I will take itt for granted till some body give mee reason to the contrary:

1. That tis the injunction [of the old Testament], and likewise itt hath bin the practice of Magistrates in all the time of the old Testament till the coming of Christ in the flesh, to restraine such thinges. If any doubt itt they shall have proofes: first, that the Magistrates of the Jewes as Magistrates were commanded to restraine such thinges: secondly, that they were commended when they did itt: thirdly, that they were reproved when they did nott. This is cleare through the current of the old Testament.

And first because I see the answers to these are obvious, I shall speake to the two chief [answers], and shew you what is objected. That is first: [that] what the Magistrates of the Jewes might or ought to doe is noe rule to others, for they were to doe itt as ecclesiastical Magistrates, Church matters concerning them; [that by] the punishment of death or such other punishments, they did butt allude to excommunication, unto the time of the Gospell; and that you can make noe inference from what they ought to doe as to conclude a perpetuall duty of Magistrates, butt a duty allegorically answer'd in the duty of Ecclesiasticall [officers in ecclesiastical] thinges. This I have have heard to bee one answer; and to this I shall butt apply one reason to shew the inconveniencie of this answer [to] those grounds that wee give from Scripture, and that is this. Iff [114] itt doe appeare that those that were the Magistrates amonge the Jewes,—whether they were Ecclesiasticall or Civill Magistrates—that they were to exercise this power, nott only to persons within the Church, butt [to persons] without the Church, professedly noe way within the compasse of the Church, then that objection is taken away. Butt I thinke [it is clear that] they were to extend this power to those that were out of the Church. They were commanded to beate downe the Idolls, and groves, and images of the land whither they went; they were commanded that they should nott suffer the stranger that was within the gate to worke on the Saboath, [and not to] to suffer swearers or idolaters of any kinde. If any man doubt that, itt is an easie matter to produce Scripture for that purpose—Soe that itt is cleare to mee they did [it] consider'd as Magistrates having an aucthority civill or nacturall, not as persons signifying or typifying the power of Ecclesiasticall Officers under the Gospell; and therfore what was a rule of duty to them (unlesse men can shew mee a ground of change) is a rule and duty of Magistrates now.

And that rule or duty to them leades mee to the next evasion: that what was a rule to them under the Law as Magistrates does nott hold under the Gospell. Now to this I answer (and I doe these thinges because I would give men grounds against the next meeting to consider of some thinges); I say that I will acknowledge as to those thinges enjoyn'd the practice whereof was commanded, the neglect whereof was reproved in the Magistrates of the Jewes, whose end was typicall and determinative, to end att the coming of Christ, to all those [I acknowledge] the duty of the Magistrate doth cease. Either as to restriction or compulsion [it] doth cease; because itt relates [not] to the thinges themselves. Butt for those thinges themselves for which they had a perpetuall ground in relacion of the duty to God, a perpetuall rule by the law written in mens hearts, and a [perpetuall] testimonie left in man by nature—and soe consequently for those thinges whereof the ground of duty towards God is nott chang'd—for those thinges I account that [115] what was sin before is sin still, what was sin to practice [before] remaines sin still, what was the duty of a Magistrate to restraine before remaines his duty to restraine still. And thus I have given my grounds why wee ought [not] to binde the hands of tho Magistrate, [so] that they shall nott restraine men from evills, though against God only, that are given as breaches of the first Table only.

Mr. Nye.

I should have made bold to suggest my thoughts this way before. I doe nott professe itt to bee my opinion, butt now I shall doe itt uppon a ground or two.

Under favour I thinke your resolution att first was to propose some objections now, and leave them to consideration.

Mr. Goodwin.

I shall crave leave to speake a few words to what the Commissary Generall hath said.

You were pleased to lay this for your ground. That the Magistrate ought to have a restrictive power in matters of religion, because matters of false worshippe (or att least of idolatry) are matters comprehended within the light of nature, such as may bee perceived by naturall men. I conceive first: That itt is nott whatsoever may bee made out, may bee drawna out by much meditation, or discourse, or inference by the light of nature—you will nott call this matters of the light of Nature; for then every man that is to obey your lawes ought to bee a student, and by contemplations finde those thinges that lie as remote from mens first apprehensions. There are abundance of thinges that may bee made out by the light of nature which are nott lawes or constitutions.b All law ought to bee [such] thinges [as may be known] by the light of nature; butt [116] such thinges as ought to bee knowne by the light of nature without inquiry, without meditation. Soe [for instance with regard to] thinges as to the being [of God], as to the creation of the world. Itt is an hard thinge for any man to come to frame a notion by such a meditation of such a being as is in God. You must putt in infinitenesse of wisedome &c. Itt will require much of a man's time to frame such a notion which will answer the being of God. For this is nott [to knowe God], to beleive that there is a God, to say there is a being which is more then men, from above that which is of men. Butt to know God is to beleive that there is a true God. "This is life eternall to beleive thee the only true God."a That was for that thinge. That though itt bee [possible] by the light of nature to make out [that there is a God, that though] men are capable by the light of nature to conceive that there is a God, yett to conceive this in a right and true manner itt is in the profundities, in the remotest parte, amongst those conclusions which lie farthest off from the presence of men, [even] though itt should bee in the light of nature.

And then againe, [with regard to] what you were pleas'd to observe concerning the Old Testament and the power of the Magistrate, I shall desire to suggest these two thinges by way of answer. My ground is: that there is nott the same reason for the power, and the exercise of the sameb power [under the] the Gospell [as there was] under the law. My first reason is this. Wee know, that the Magistracie of the old Testament was appointed, instituted, and directed by God himself. The Magistracie under the Gospell is chosen [by men], and they are vested with that power which they have from men. Now God may bee his owne carver. If hee will create and sett uppe Magistrates hee may give them what power hee pleases, and give them charge to exercise such a power as hee shall conferre uppon them. And then further [117] there is this. There is a peculiar and speciall reason why Magistrates under the law should bee invested with such a power in matters of religion, and that reason being chang'd under the new Testament the consideration will nott hold; itt will nott paralell heere. The reason is this. Wee know the land of Canaan, and indeed all thinges in itt, nott only those that were . . . .a poetically, butt the land and Nation and people, was typicall of Churches, and [typical] of the Churches of Christ under the Gospell, of the purity of them and holinesse of them. Canaan is the Kingdome of Heaven as wee all generally know.b There was a necessity, that land being a type of perfect holinesse and of the Kingdome of Heaven, that there should bee lawes and ordinances of that nature which should keepe all thinges as pure and free to worshippe as possibly might bee. Otherwise the visage,c the lovelinesse of the type, would have bin defac't. Itt would nott have answer'd God's designe in itt. Now unlesse wee shall suppose that the lands and state[s] under the Gospell are typicall alsoe, there is noe reason that wee should thinke to reduce them to those termesd [as the land of Canaan was], or by such wayes [as the land of Canaan was]. That is by forcible meanes, by stronge hand, as God did then order and use for the clearing of that land, of that naked piece, which hee intended should bee a type of that whole estate of thinges in his Kingdome and his Church. And that's another thinge. Inasmuch as Magistrates now in [being are under] the Gospell, they are from the first,—and soe consequently to the lowest, for they have all their descent from him—[all instituted by man]. If soe bee wee shall conceive they have power from him, itt should bee part of that power which is putt into him, and vested [118] uppon him who made them and sett [them] uppe in the place of Magistrates.a For that you were pleas'd to suggest in another parte of your discourse, that there is a certain [inherent] power in Magistracy;b for man marks the case and God putts in the jewell, men present and God impowers. I doe nott conceive there is any such thinge in itt, for then there was a necessity that the extent of the Magistraticall power should bee the same throughout the world. Wheras if you looke into the state of all Nations, [you will see] that the power that is putt into the hands of Kinges and princes is moulded and fashioned by the people; and there is scarce any two places in the world where the power[s] of the rulers are the same. Magistrates have soe much power as the people are willing to give them. If [it be] soe now, then if a body of people, as the commonalty of this land, if they have nott a power in themselves to restraine such and such thinges, [as] matters concerning false worshippe, amongst themselves, certaine itt is, that they cannott derive any such power to the Magistrate, butt hee does act itt of himself, and by an assuming unto [himself] that which was never given unto him. There is much more to bee spoken in this point.

Mr. Nye.

The Arguments to abate what the Commissary Generall said are many.

I shall speake butt to one branch, and the last thinge mentioned: that the Magistrate hath noe other power butt what is conveyed to him by the people; for that I thinke is the [great] consideration. Forc what the Commissary was pleased to say as in relation to the Jewes, wee doe nott beleive that all that was there was typicall, butt much [was] rather morall, judiciall; butt that such a thinge was then in practice as to putt a power in the Magistrate to have somethinge to doe about religion about matters of God. [I] [119] will take uppe this consideration: that that fundamentall principle of a Commonwealth to act what they are pleas'd to act, does nott in the least lie in the Ministeriall power butt in the Legislative power; and if so itt lie[s] in the people. If soe, then [I would ask], whether itt doe nott lie in the power of the people to consider any thinge that may tend to the publique weale and publique good, and make a law for itt, or give a power [for it]. Whatsoever a company of people gather'd together may judge tending to the publique good, or the Common weale, that they have a liberty [to do], soe longe as itt is nott sinfull. They may putt this into the Ministeriall power to attend itt. Now Sir, suppose this bee laid downe as another principle, [I would ask] whether may nott a company [of people] conclude together and sitt downe in a Commonwealth to doe what may bee done in a lawfull way for the preserving and feeding of the bodie to their good.a That the thinges of our God, itt is that which is of publique good and publique concernement, and amonge all other comforts of life I looke uppon this as one, aswell as my house and foode and raiment.b

A second consideration may bee this: that there may bee such [and such] sins for which God will take account and make miserable this Commonwealth, those [men] being Christians, or [even] if they have the light of nature [only]. By the light of nature wee are able to say for such thinges God will plague a Nation, and judge a Nation. A companie of men mett together to consult for common good doe pitch uppon such thinges as doe concerne the Commonwealth. They would doe what they can to prevent such sins or provocacions as may [make judgments] come downe uppon their heads. In this case I doe nott goe about to say this, that a Magistrate, as if hee had an edict from heaven, should oppose this [or that]; butt that the people making of them,c if itt bee lawfull for [120] them to make such conclusions or constitutions to avoide such evills, the Magistrate may lawfully exercise that which they may lawfully make; and therfore I say itt was once exercised under the Jewish Commonwealth. Then [if the end of a Commonwealth be to provide] for common good, and if the thinges of God [and blessings] appertayning to them bee a good to bee wish't; if they doe nott [only] tend to that [common good], butt prevent the evill and judgements of God, I know nothing butt in conclusion there may bee some power made uppe in the Magistrate as may tend to itt.

Mr. Wildman.

I suppose the Gentleman that spoke last mistakes the Question. Hee seemes to speake as in relation to the peoples giving that power the Gentleman spoke before, butt to that which hee spoke this may bee answer'd de futuro.a That itt is nott lawfull to intrust the Magistrate with such a power. That itt was nott meerly typicall. The Question was, whether itt were morall? If itt were nott morall itt were [not] perpetuall. If itt were morall itt must goe to all Magistrates in the world. That the Magistrate should act to his conscience, destroy and kill all men that would nott come to such a worshippe as hee had. God hath nott given a command to all Magistrates to destroy idolatry, for in consequence itt would destroy the world. To that which the Gentleman said, that the people might conferre such a power uppon the Magistrate in relation to a common good, I answer: that matters of religion or the worshippe of God are nott a thinge trustable, soe that either a restrictive or a compulsive power should make a man to sin. To the 2d thinge: that [there might be such a power] nott only in relation to a common good, butt to the prevention of evill; because by the Magistrates preventing such thinges as are contrary to the light of nature—To that I answer itt is nott easily determinable by the light of nature what is sin; and if the Gentleman speake of [121] thinges betweene man and man, of thinges that tend to [destroy] humane society, hee is besides the Question; if concerning matters of the worshippe of God, itt is an hard thinge to determine [by the light of nature.] Itt is nott easy by the light of nature to determine there is a God. The Sunne may bee that God. The Moone may bee that God. To frame a right conception or notion of the first being, wherin all other thinges had their being, is nott by the light of nature. Indeed if a man consider there is a will of the Supreame cause, itt is an hard thinge for [him by] the light of nature to conceive how there can bee any sin committed; and therfore the Magistrate cannott easily determine what sins are against the light of nature, and what nott. And to both of those considerations together this may bee said. Supposing both these thinges were thus, yett [to give the Magistrate this power] is butt to putt the Magistrate in a probable condition to doe good, or in a capacity probably to prevent sin. Because the Magistrate must bee conceived to bee as erroneous as the people by whome hee is restrain'd, and more probable to erre then the people that have noe power in their hands.a The probability is greater that hee will destroy what is good then prevent what is evill. Soe that to both of them they doe nott putt the Commonwealth into soe much as a probability of any good by such a trust committed to them.

Com. Generall.

I shall desire butt a worde or two. Truly I did indeavour when I began to goe in the way that men might judge whether there was weight in what was said in the reply; and I perceive there was noe other ground laid then what I said, [or] then what Mr. Nye did adde further as a rationall satisfaccion to men why such a thinge might bee intrusted. Butt I suppose the grounds of this are such [122] as to lay a ground uppon conscience why itt is or should bee the duty of Magistrates in a Commonwealth to use what power they have for the restrayning of such thinges asa sins against the first Table, [and] practices forbidden in the first Table; and I would very faine once heare somebody to answer to these grounds that I lay to that. I have heard an answer to one of those grounds: that thinges are subject to men's judgements, . . . . to the judgement of the Magistrates, and to the conviction of the subject. Butt I have heard none uppon the Scripture ground, and I would heare something of that. 1. That in the state of the Jewes the Magistrate there as a Magistrate,—and as a Magistrate nott of a Church only butt as a Magistrate of a Nation—hee had [the] power and [the] right [to restrain such things]—nay itt was a duty uppon him, hee was injoyn'd to itt, and when hee did itt hee was commended for itt, and when hee neglected itt hee was condemn'd and brought to ruine for itt—and [it was] to bee exercised to others then to those that were members of the Church only.b That this therfore which was the rule then, is a rule to a Magistrate as a Magistrate [now], and as the Magistrate of a Kingdome or a Nation. That [which] was then a rule to them that were them [Magistrates] to deserve this commendation if they did itt, and reproof if they did itt nott, is a rule to Magistrates under the Gospell, unlesse in such thinges the evill or good wherof as then was taken away [by the coming of Christ.] If the thinge which hee had a power to restraine [was temporarily or typically evil], then I agree that by the coming of Christ in the flesh itt was taken away. Butt if the thinge were morally and perpetually evill, that which was the ground of the duty [then] will remaine the ground of the duty still, then I conceive the duty as to such thinges remaines the same still. I would I could expresse itt shorter—butt men may take itt shorter,—Butt I would have some answer [these grounds] that is deny that the Magistrates had power to restraine, or [assert that they exercised it not] as Civill Magistratesb of a civil [123] society, and [that it] extended only over the Members of ana Ecclesiasticall Society; and to shew mee some grounds why if itt were a duty then itt should bee alter'd now, and as subject to men to judge of.

Col. Deane.

The businesse [as] you seeme to state [it] is thus: that in the State of the Jewes there was a Magistrate, and that Magistrate did this and that [to them] that did nott act according to the Jewish religion.

Commissary Ireton.

I will agree [that] all that was in the Jewish religion, the good or evill whereofb did tend to typicall institution is nott a rule of our practice.

Col. Deane.

Why should nott the Civill Magistrate in this time punish any man for walking contrary to those rules for which the Jewes were punished?

Com̃. Ireton.

Those thinges which the Magistrates of the Jewes did punish as evill, if they bee of the grounds and evill as they were then—

Col. Deane.

Why will you nott destroy the Turke and the Jewes, and all others as they did the Canaanites?

Doctor Parker.

I would offer this to the consideration of our worthy freinds that are heere.

You say that which was commanded to the Civill Magistrates of the Jewes that is of [moral] right, that is alsoe to bee continued amongst us. I shall offer this objection as to that: that those thinges [124] that are of morall right as wee conceive, and that they did practice in their religion, were commanded imediately from God; if they were commanded to them imediately from God, without any injunction to bee practized by their successors, and that they should practice the same thinge, then your argument holds good, otherwise nott. My meaning is this. Wee know itt was of morall right, that noe man should kill his owne sonne. Abraham had an injunction to the contrary. God may give out injunctions to his owne will and pleasure, face to face, to any particular person, and to bee obeyed by that particular person, [even if contrary to] those thinges that are of morall right. Itt is of morall right I should preserve my childe, and doe him all the good I can doe. Yett because God did command a contrary thinge itt was practised. Soe on the other side, if God will command thinges to bee done [by particular magistrates], they doe nott conclude all successors of [those] Magistrates that are in the same power.

Mr. Gilbert.

The Doctor sayes, if wee can shew that those commands are now binding uppon Magistrates hee'le grant us the Question as for his parte. Truly I have this to offer. Itt will bee much in compliance with what the Commissary General [said]. There were three lawes amonge the Jewes, the Ceremoniall, Judiciall, and Morall Lawes: I suppose the Judiciall law as to the painsa of itt was a fenceb and guard to the Ceremoniall and Morall law. [In the first place] the law doth aime att obedience to itt, and in the second place a punishment to itt's dissobedience. I conceive the punishment of the Ceremoniall law was nott [a part] of the Morall law itt self, butt [a fence] of the purity of the Jewes.c Soe farre as the Judiciall [law] was a fence and out worke to the [125] Ceremoniall law [it] is falne with the Ceremonialla law. Soe farre as itt was a fence and outworke to the Morall law itt stands with the Morall law, and that still bindes uppon men. Soe [that part of] the Judiciall law that was a fence to that, is still the duty of Magistrates.

Mr. Collier.

As farre as I remember the Commissary Generall offer'd two thinges: and the first was, whether that this Judiciall law for the Magistrate to punish thinges which were sin, sin against God, those things in the old Testament mentioned are not commanded by God. And the 2d, whether they are taken away, and soe have noe relation to the Magistrates under the Gospell. Now to the first, I shall give you the ground why those lawes or commands and that Judiciall law given under the time of the Law hath noe reference to us under the Gospell. I might give you particular grounds, butt one principall ground of that I shall give you is this, as one ground of that which is given already. As itt is Morall itt should have bin given to all states as well as to the Jewes. Butt the ground is this, that the law of the Jewes is nott binding to us under the Gospell. If itt bee I shall then thus inferre, that the Magistrate hath his power from Divine Institution, and soe hath his power from God, and nott from the Agreement of the people, and if soe then they must come to have the same claime from God. If hee have his Commission from God lett him shew itt, soe say I, if hee have his Commission from God wee have nothing to doe to limitt him.b

The 2d thinge that I would minde you then itt is that wee generally agree in, [and it has been] often minded this day: that the Judiciall law to the Jewes is abrogated to us in the Gospell. I meane in respect of the circumstances of itt, though in respect of the truth of itt there is a Judiciall law to bee executed uppon [126] the people nott in the way the Jewes did. I shall give you the grounds of itt. One ground is this, that there are some thinges mencioned that was given as commands to Magistrates in the Judiciall law to punish, with which Magistrates in the New Testament have nothing to doe.a I shall minde two in particular. The first is that [sin] of Idolatry which was punished with death in the old Testament. Idolaters are to bee putt to death. That under the Gospell the Gospell is soe farre from giving that liberty much lesse power unto a Magistrate to punish an Idolater with death. To mee it is very clear in these words of the Apostle in 1 Corinthians vii.,b that if a man or woman had a wife or husband that was an Idolator they were to live with them, and nott to punish them according to the law of the Jewes. The 2d thinge I shall minde to you is that of Adultery. Adultery was [under the Law] to bee punished with death. If wee looke to the Judiciall law wee must bee exact as to every particular of itt. Wee shall finde, that this law was done away. The woman that was taken in Adultery was brought to Christ, and they told him that Moses' law was to putt her to death. Christ answers, "Hee that is without sin lett him throwe the first stone att her." Now I looke uppon it to be mysticall. To mee itt was this: that the Gospell would admitt of noe such thinge as this [Judicial Law], butt that there was a New law; and in the Epistles, there was rules given for the excommunication of Adulterers, and [persons guilty of] Incest, and the like, which gives mee ground to judge that the appointing of death under the Old Testament, and the like [penalties to] those which commit such offences doth relate to excommunication.c

Col. Hewson.

I am nott satisfied as to the thinge, and therfore I shall nott use [127] any argument as from my self; butt having heard some [use an] argument that is nott answer'd I shall desire to hinte itt againe. I shall gather itt uppe in few wordes. That which in the Morall law is injoyn'd unto the Jewes is still of perpetuall use amongst us under the Gospell. Butt restriction in the Morall law is enjoyn'd unto the Jewes, as in the 4th. Commandement. Therfore restriction is in perpetuall use now under the Gospell. This I conceive to bee the summe of what you have from the 4th Commandement. To mee itt seemes to bee of some force. There is some thing hinted of that which was typicall, and the like, butt nothing as to this argument from the Morall law.

Com̃. Ireton.

Because this Gentleman doth relate an Argument from mee, I'le tell you how I putt itt.

That which was evill in the time of the Jewes, and remaines as evill now, and hath the same ground of evill now that itt had then, and especially if such a thinge as was evill even before that law [was] given; for such a thinge what was the duty of a Magistrate to restraine then [remains his duty to restrain now], though I cannott say to restraine itt with the same penalty. For the imposing of a penaltie was judiciall, butt the imposing of a restriction was nott judiciall butt perpetuall. This I take for granted: that [what] was evill then and remaines uppon the same ground equally evill now, that if the Jewish Magistrate ought to restraine that even in persons nott under the Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction, soe ought Christian Magistrates to restraine itt, if they bee Christians, even in those that are nott under the Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction.

Mr. Goodwin.

Though itt bee supposed and granted, that the same thinges [which] are evill now as they were under the law [are] to bee [128] punished now as they were [then], butt if God hath ordain'd new kinde of punishments [for them] to bee punished with, wee cannott suppose that they are punishable with both punishments. The latter does dissannull the former. If hee that blasphemes is to bee cast out to Satan, that hee may learne nott to blaspheme, itt is impossible that this Commandement of God should bee putt in execution if a blasphemer should bee putt to death.

Com̃. Ireton.

I thinke if wee were now uppon the question of what an Ecclesiasticall Judicature or Church Magistrate should doe, itt would very well bee that that should bee the rule that Mr. Goodwin sayes: that such punishments should bee used by the Ecclesiasticall Officers (and only such) as are warranted by the Gospell, uppon which the outward calling of the Church hath itt's ground; butt itt is concerning a Civill Magistrate, or a Magistrate of a meere civill constitution. I say this, if any man doe butt consider, that in the Gospell there is nothing that is to bee called and taken as of positive institution, butt that [which is expressly so intended]; I will nott desire that itt may bee taken any advantage of. Butt parts of the Gospella are either historicall, expressing what Christ did when hee was in the flesh and how hee was brought to death, as the fower Evangelists, and the Acts of the Apostles. Or else they are exhortatory, written by way of advice to the Churches of the Saints in the severall parts of the world; and they are written to them, [partly] as applyed to what was in generall to bee the condition of all Saints in all ages to the worlds end, and partly [as applyed to] what thinges were the condition of all the saints to whome these Epistles were written. As for the historicall parte of the Gospell—or Propheticall—that's the Revelation—I suppose noe man from the historicall parte will goe to make itt necessary, that in the historicall parte there should bee [129] anythinge of institution of Ecclesiasticall or other Magistrates. In the Epistolary parte, if wee first consider that all the Saints or Churches to whome these Epistles were written were all rather under a condition of persecution under Heathen Magistrates, then having a power of Magistracie in their owne hands, wee have noe reason to thinke that the Epistles written to them should bee intended as to give the rules concerning Magistracie. Butt since there was a rule concerning Magistracie, that is [a rule] by which heea might judge what was evill and what was good—First, Had from the light of nature. 2dly, Had a more cleare foundation in the Morall law (as they call itt) that gave grounds which way the Magistrate might goe—theyb doe as well leave the Magistrate [free] in the punishment of those thinges that are in the first Table uppon prudentiall grounds, and nott tying them uppe to the judiciall grounds of the Jewish Commonwealth, butt when there should bee any Christian Magistrates leaving them to those foundations and rules of their proceeding which they had a ground for in nature, leaving that which was good or evill to restraine or nott.c I conceive the whole drift of the Gospell hath bin to apply [restraint] in that kind to what thinges are either [un] fitt to bee used amongst men in society as Christians; or else thinges that were the common duty of men nott [merely of] Magistrates [to restrain]; though itt sayes something of that, and if any will say I shall thinke itt to bee very good. Butt this I shall wish to bee consider'd: whether in relation to what is said in the Gospell, if the penaltie does cease then the punishment of itt att all does cease? Then I would faine know, whether by the same ground that Idolatry should [not] bee punished [with death], murther should nott bee punished with death? And [I would fain know] what you can imagine should exempt the Magistrate under the Gospell from punishing Idolaters, should excuse the Magistrate [130] under the Gospell, or should deterre him from punishing them with death, or other punishment which under the judiciall law is punishable with death? Whether the same thinge will nott serve to this, that now even for murther, for theft, for all those thinges that are evills against men, which in that law had their particular [punishments] prescribed, whether itt would nott hold as well for this, that now there ought to bee a libertie under the Gospell, itt is a time of mercie, and that wee ought nott to punish those thinges?

Mr. Goodwin.

Those punishments by death of murther and the like, the originall of the equitie and justice was nott to the Jewes only, butt they were by the law of nature. [The old Testament says:] By whome man's bloud is shed. But longe before this [murder was punished by with death].

Com̃. Ireton.

Wee shall desire noe more [than this]. That if the ground of that which made itt sin, and the ground of the punishment does remaine the same now, then the sin is to bee restrain'd as itt was then, and that which was sin then is sin now.

Mr. Nye.

If blasphemy bee punished with two punishments, a sin may bee punished with two punishments; as for example theft. If a man were a Church Member hee might bee excommunicated first, and hang'd afterwards. That was nott a fallacie.

There were 2 places that Mr. Collier had [alleged]. They must nott punish Idolaters then because the Magistrate was soe.a Butt for the woman taken in Adultery, this was the reason that Christ did nott judge her, because hee would nott meddle with Magistraticall matters. All the while Christ lived noe Jewish rite was abolished.

Mr. Wildman.

I humbly conceive, that while there is a new saving made whether that such thinges bee null'd by the Gospell, the ground [of your argument is that] which the Commissary Generall sayes.

This is your Argument: that which was sin then, and is now sin, and ought to be punished then, ought to bee punished now. I suppose there is noe consequence att all [in this argument, that] if itt were punished then itt ought to bee punished now. Because itt was [punished then] uppon a judiciall law, which was morall, butt nott naturally morall,a and yourself said, that the punishment was nott naturally [moral]. If soe I would desire to know how wee should distinguish which parte of itt was naturally Morall, and what was nott. The Decalogue containes the whole law. If you will extend itt beyond itt I would know where you will terminate itt. Besides, if itt were naturally Morall, you must found it upon nature. If itt had bin given as a thinge naturally morall, and [to a magistrate] as a magistrate, then itt must belonge to every Magistrate that was in the world, and then you must hold that God had ordain'd such a power to bee in every Magistrate. I must confesse, that what was given to them was as Jewish Magistrates, butt nott quatenus Magistrates. Not determining what a Magistrate shall bee you leave us to an uncertainty. Wee finde noe such power att all in any Magistrate.

Mr. Goodwin.

That if this power should have bin destinated in all Magistrates, then every Magistrate in the world had bin bound to have putt all his subjects to death.

Com̃. Ireton.

If I should reply to what was said, and then adjourne the Court, itt would bee thought nott faire; and therefore I shall say nothing [132] in the world to answer to this, butt leave men to judge whether that which hath bin said bee an answer or noe.

Com̃. Generall.

That itt will bee a greater securitie in case the Army should bee forced to remove, when the ill-affected partie may come in againe.

Itt will give much satisfaction to the people, in regard of their expressing their desires nott to sett uppe themselves butt their resolves for a future Representative.

Lieut. Generall.

That itt will bee more honourable and convenient for them to putt a period to themselves.b

Commissary Generall.

If the Parliament should vote a day for their dissolution without [171] the Agreement, all the indeavours will bee used for Parliaments to come in the old way; butt if men finde there is noe avoidance of this Parliament butt by this Agreement, there is nothing soe much likely to keepe men's hands off from opposing the Agreement. The people may think if they oppose this Agreement they oppose the ending of this Parliament.a

Lieut. Generall.

Then you are afraid they will doe [so]?b

Com̃ Generall.

If the generality of people could see the end of this Parliament, [they] would bee for the opposing of any thinge of this kinde; or would waite for the expiring of that to looke for a succession of new Parliaments in the old way and old forme of a Kinge agen. Nothing of more advantage to this Parliament then to end itt by the Agreement with safetie [to itself], without prejudice to future Parliaments.